Comments on: The PS3 is too hard! Quite, which must be why they actually see fit to be far more useful by providing a decent view of threads and fibers, not to mention other system resources... oh and let you compile while you debug.. gotta love that one :-) Quite, which must be why they actually see fit to be far more useful by providing a decent view of threads and fibers, not to mention other system resources… oh and let you compile while you debug.. gotta love that one :-)

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By: James McLaren/2011/03/05/the-ps3-is-too-hard/#comment-5968 James McLaren Mon, 20 Jun 2011 04:32:36 +0000 I'm also surprised noone mensioned the fact that SPE are meant to be programmed with SIMD and that scalar code seems to be software emulated... I’m also surprised noone mensioned the fact that SPE are meant to be programmed with SIMD and that scalar code seems to be software emulated…

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By: Andrew Lauritzen/2011/03/05/the-ps3-is-too-hard/#comment-1305 Andrew Lauritzen Mon, 07 Mar 2011 03:20:19 +0000 I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the 256K SPU memory limit. It's a tiny amount of memory! Also the PS3 tools are nowhere near as mature as Visual Studio. I’m surprised nobody has mentioned the 256K SPU memory limit. It’s a tiny amount of memory! Also the PS3 tools are nowhere near as mature as Visual Studio.

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By: Glenn Watson/2011/03/05/the-ps3-is-too-hard/#comment-1292 Glenn Watson Sun, 06 Mar 2011 18:27:25 +0000 yeah, its surprising but I worry a lot less about the code performance on iOS on a PHONE than I used to working on PS3 or X360 games. Though some of that might be that I try to design games that don't require 99% of the machines power to run ok since I don't have the time/budget to be messing around with optimisation. Hand optimisation is SO expensive in developer time. yeah, its surprising but I worry a lot less about the code performance on iOS on a PHONE than I used to working on PS3 or X360 games. Though some of that might be that I try to design games that don’t require 99% of the machines power to run ok since I don’t have the time/budget to be messing around with optimisation. Hand optimisation is SO expensive in developer time.

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By: James Podesta/2011/03/05/the-ps3-is-too-hard/#comment-1286 James Podesta Sun, 06 Mar 2011 12:23:12 +0000 Once you have to debug a few SPU crashes, you'll know why people say PS3 is too hard :) Of course, some of us use the equation: hard + powerful = fun Once you have to debug a few SPU crashes, you’ll know why people say PS3 is too hard :)

Of course, some of us use the equation: hard + powerful = fun

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By: Dan Olson/2011/03/05/the-ps3-is-too-hard/#comment-1284 Dan Olson Sun, 06 Mar 2011 10:15:05 +0000 porting... lovely. I don't see how it is physically possible to make a game like PixelJunk Shooter (or PixelJunk Shooter 2 which came out this week![/shameless plug]) with its simulated fluids run at 1080p/60hz on the 360. Sure, it is because we designed the technology using SPUs right from the start but still, that power *enabled* our game. The best on the PS3 beats or at least equals the best on the 360 (Uncharted 2/Infamous etc). Ports are definitely not what should be compared against as they are inherently geared for whatever the original platform was and you will always have to expend resources "re-tuning" it for another platform. (this goes all the way back to the c64/Spectrum and Atari/Amiga days.. nothing changes eh). porting… lovely.

I don’t see how it is physically possible to make a game like PixelJunk Shooter (or PixelJunk Shooter 2 which came out this week![/shameless plug]) with its simulated fluids run at 1080p/60hz on the 360. Sure, it is because we designed the technology using SPUs right from the start but still, that power *enabled* our game.

The best on the PS3 beats or at least equals the best on the 360 (Uncharted 2/Infamous etc). Ports are definitely not what should be compared against as they are inherently geared for whatever the original platform was and you will always have to expend resources “re-tuning” it for another platform. (this goes all the way back to the c64/Spectrum and Atari/Amiga days.. nothing changes eh).

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By: Tony Albrecht/2011/03/05/the-ps3-is-too-hard/#comment-1275 Tony Albrecht Sat, 05 Mar 2011 23:19:03 +0000 Got any power figures for this chip, Tom? ;) I think your last paragraph works both ways. Sometimes change is good, and in fact, required. Got any power figures for this chip, Tom? ;)

I think your last paragraph works both ways. Sometimes change is good, and in fact, required.

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By: Dan Olson/2011/03/05/the-ps3-is-too-hard/#comment-1270 Dan Olson Sat, 05 Mar 2011 21:04:06 +0000 Sorry but GPAD is better than PIX these days Sorry but GPAD is better than PIX these days

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By: noes/2011/03/05/the-ps3-is-too-hard/#comment-1265 noes Sat, 05 Mar 2011 17:39:13 +0000 It's strange that no one mentioned software issues. IMHO PS3 hardware is good, but SDK and tools aren't. Especially if we compare them with stuff for x360 (pix!). It’s strange that no one mentioned software issues. IMHO PS3 hardware is good, but SDK and tools aren’t. Especially if we compare them with stuff for x360 (pix!).

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By: snake5/2011/03/05/the-ps3-is-too-hard/#comment-1261 snake5 Sat, 05 Mar 2011 16:27:58 +0000 "Realistically" - just fine. I have a 32 core machine with a completely conventional fully-coherent x86 programming environment. It's multithreaded (and then bloody some), and it's got massively wide SIMD, but otherwise there's nothing particularly wacky about the programming model. Of course my stubborn company won't let you have one, but hey - it's an existence proof - if we can build it, so can someone else. The fact is that the PowerPC cores used in the 360 and PS3 are rubbish. They were designed to hit a frequency target that was insane, and that fatally compromised their efficiency. The SPUs managed to hit that frequency more elegantly by throwing away all the difficult bits of normal computer architecture. They are a clever and efficient design as long as you're not the poor bastard that has to make them do something interesting. Why do you think the Flash and Mobile games coders are having such a fun time? Because the hardware helps them - it has the audacity to allow them to make some really dumb language choices and yet deliver reasonable performance. This allows them to get on and make cool shit instead of sitting there sawing your program into 128k chunks. Last time I had to do that was on the BBC Micro - get thee to the 21st century! Everyone has had their expectations set so low by those things - this console generation has produced a horrible Stockholm syndrome in all of us. Of course the geek engineer in us loves tuning these cantankerous claptraps, but that's not getting the job done and making fun stuff. It's like playing with 1970s muscle cars - it's fun in a masochistic way, and if you get the thing running well it's a real achievement. But if you want to take someone to the airport you're going to hop in the Subaru. I'm totally fine with people being proud of what they can achieve when these machines tie their hands behind their backs - ninjas are most impressive when under stress. But we shouldn't make the mistake of thinking that this was inevitable, desirable or in any way approaching optimal - especially for the end-user experience. And we certainly don't want to give the impression that we want more of this in the future. The obvious reply is "so do something about it". Yup - trying :-) “Realistically” – just fine. I have a 32 core machine with a completely conventional fully-coherent x86 programming environment. It’s multithreaded (and then bloody some), and it’s got massively wide SIMD, but otherwise there’s nothing particularly wacky about the programming model. Of course my stubborn company won’t let you have one, but hey – it’s an existence proof – if we can build it, so can someone else.

The fact is that the PowerPC cores used in the 360 and PS3 are rubbish. They were designed to hit a frequency target that was insane, and that fatally compromised their efficiency. The SPUs managed to hit that frequency more elegantly by throwing away all the difficult bits of normal computer architecture. They are a clever and efficient design as long as you’re not the poor bastard that has to make them do something interesting.

Why do you think the Flash and Mobile games coders are having such a fun time? Because the hardware helps them – it has the audacity to allow them to make some really dumb language choices and yet deliver reasonable performance. This allows them to get on and make cool shit instead of sitting there sawing your program into 128k chunks. Last time I had to do that was on the BBC Micro – get thee to the 21st century!

Everyone has had their expectations set so low by those things – this console generation has produced a horrible Stockholm syndrome in all of us. Of course the geek engineer in us loves tuning these cantankerous claptraps, but that’s not getting the job done and making fun stuff. It’s like playing with 1970s muscle cars – it’s fun in a masochistic way, and if you get the thing running well it’s a real achievement. But if you want to take someone to the airport you’re going to hop in the Subaru.

I’m totally fine with people being proud of what they can achieve when these machines tie their hands behind their backs – ninjas are most impressive when under stress. But we shouldn’t make the mistake of thinking that this was inevitable, desirable or in any way approaching optimal – especially for the end-user experience. And we certainly don’t want to give the impression that we want more of this in the future.

The obvious reply is “so do something about it”. Yup – trying :-)

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By: Joel Dinolt/2011/03/05/the-ps3-is-too-hard/#comment-1259 Joel Dinolt Sat, 05 Mar 2011 15:54:07 +0000 The SPUs are good at what they were intended to do: data processing. The problem I think many developers face is that they have several threads worth of normal processing to do which works really well across 6 xbox threads, but not on the only 2 threads on PPU. I don't want to get into a long discussion about future consoles, but realistically how likely is it that the xbox style architecture can scale to 10 cores, or 20 cores, or more? Memory bandwidth just won't scale fast enough. Cell was designed with this in mind and increasing the number of SPUs to say 20 would be far easier. Saying that, i'd much prefer a few decent out of order PPU cores and a nice GPU. If ARM can put OO cores in phones, Sony and MIcrosoft have no excuses for the next gen. The SPUs are good at what they were intended to do: data processing. The problem I think many developers face is that they have several threads worth of normal processing to do which works really well across 6 xbox threads, but not on the only 2 threads on PPU.

I don’t want to get into a long discussion about future consoles, but realistically how likely is it that the xbox style architecture can scale to 10 cores, or 20 cores, or more? Memory bandwidth just won’t scale fast enough. Cell was designed with this in mind and increasing the number of SPUs to say 20 would be far easier. Saying that, i’d much prefer a few decent out of order PPU cores and a nice GPU. If ARM can put OO cores in phones, Sony and MIcrosoft have no excuses for the next gen.

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By: Stefan Boberg/2011/03/05/the-ps3-is-too-hard/#comment-1254 Stefan Boberg Sat, 05 Mar 2011 09:33:21 +0000 Well said, Dan. As much as I like geeking out on weird / unneccessary complex hardware, there's no reason other than Sony saving money why the hardware should be in the way of us making games more easily. Blog posts about solving and optimizing for the PS3 are fun, but it's not game related, it just happens to be the same machine and same job. Well said, Dan.
As much as I like geeking out on weird / unneccessary complex hardware, there’s no reason other than Sony saving money why the hardware should be in the way of us making games more easily.
Blog posts about solving and optimizing for the PS3 are fun, but it’s not game related, it just happens to be the same machine and same job.

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By: Dan Olson/2011/03/05/the-ps3-is-too-hard/#comment-1251 Dan Olson Sat, 05 Mar 2011 09:00:19 +0000 Same thing was said by some devs about the Playstation2, but back then they actually had a point. :) Same thing was said by some devs about the Playstation2, but back then they actually had a point. :)

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By: Glenn Watson/2011/03/05/the-ps3-is-too-hard/#comment-1247 Glenn Watson Sat, 05 Mar 2011 08:31:05 +0000