Comments on: On Demos and Programming Tests : Rant From A Q-Games Test Reviewer [...] The games development industry is the most competitive sector in the technology industry. You have to work hard, day and night, eat, sleep and drink this stuff. Luckily for me its what my life revolves around, programming and creating amazing things, such as games. So I have to keep busy, getting experience, working on demos, going to events and just generally been engaged in the industry. It doesn’t even feel like work because I love it. If you read #altDevBlogaDay (which I strongly recommend you do) then you can hear this kind of thing from the horses mouth, as they say. Games developers working in industry telling it like it is. A great read from Jaymin Kessler is an article on essentially getting a Job in the games development Industry . [...] [...] The games development industry is the most competitive sector in the technology industry. You have to work hard, day and night, eat, sleep and drink this stuff. Luckily for me its what my life revolves around, programming and creating amazing things, such as games. So I have to keep busy, getting experience, working on demos, going to events and just generally been engaged in the industry. It doesn’t even feel like work because I love it. If you read #altDevBlogaDay (which I strongly recommend you do) then you can hear this kind of thing from the horses mouth, as they say. Games developers working in industry telling it like it is. A great read from Jaymin Kessler is an article on essentially getting a Job in the games development Industry . [...]

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By: Ciarán McCann/2011/02/15/on-demos-and-programming-tests-rant-from-a-q-games-test-reviewer/#comment-2839 Ciarán McCann Fri, 15 Apr 2011 22:20:07 +0000 I think I am going to do a quick update tonight to cover something I somehow forgot to mention. If you submit a demo, make sure they actually run. Try them on different computers and realize that a lot of people out there may not be running Windows7 or Windows Vista. At least provide some cool screenshots and videos to be safe, because it seems like Windows stuff isn't quite as good as Mac OSX at making sure stuff runs everywhere (yes I just typed this while pulling out my hair over yet another demo I can't actually run) I think I am going to do a quick update tonight to cover something I somehow forgot to mention. If you submit a demo, make sure they actually run. Try them on different computers and realize that a lot of people out there may not be running Windows7 or Windows Vista. At least provide some cool screenshots and videos to be safe, because it seems like Windows stuff isn’t quite as good as Mac OSX at making sure stuff runs everywhere

(yes I just typed this while pulling out my hair over yet another demo I can’t actually run)

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By: Brian Karis/2011/02/15/on-demos-and-programming-tests-rant-from-a-q-games-test-reviewer/#comment-846 Brian Karis Fri, 18 Feb 2011 00:16:22 +0000 @Dylan: I'd say that for a game company, its much easier to teach a young programmer who is creative how to become a better programmer, than a good programmer, who's not creative, how to be a better programmer... and how to also be creative. Being creative really push the boundaries of what you can do and pushes yourself at being better and solving problems no-one has solved before. Someone who's just good at writing good structured code will unfortunately stagnate, and only be good at being a code grunt. A creative person will grow in the company. @Dylan: I’d say that for a game company, its much easier to teach a young programmer who is creative how to become a better programmer, than a good programmer, who’s not creative, how to be a better programmer… and how to also be creative. Being creative really push the boundaries of what you can do and pushes yourself at being better and solving problems no-one has solved before. Someone who’s just good at writing good structured code will unfortunately stagnate, and only be good at being a code grunt. A creative person will grow in the company.

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By: Dylan Cuthbert/2011/02/15/on-demos-and-programming-tests-rant-from-a-q-games-test-reviewer/#comment-837 Dylan Cuthbert Thu, 17 Feb 2011 01:25:12 +0000 @Fabrice There sure are - and obviously, you were really passionate about yours. Which is what it *really* comes down to. @Fabrice There sure are – and obviously, you were really passionate about yours. Which is what it *really* comes down to.

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By: Fabrice Lété/2011/02/15/on-demos-and-programming-tests-rant-from-a-q-games-test-reviewer/#comment-834 Fabrice Lété Wed, 16 Feb 2011 17:12:47 +0000 This is a great post. But one thing you're missing I think when looking for young candidates with their demos, is their creativity. To me, creativity, even in the programming field is key. So while you might be able to solve problems in the academic way, and do a good demo, if it has nothing original, nothing that makes you be out of the lot from a, "wow this is cool, a good idea there" I wouldn't be as interested. In fact, I would go with a candidate that is more creative, but less good at writing a memory allocator, or forgot to clean up his memory leaks than a programmer that will show nice and clean code, but has just done something that I saw 100 times, just in a more clean way. This is a great post. But one thing you’re missing I think when looking for young candidates with their demos, is their creativity. To me, creativity, even in the programming field is key. So while you might be able to solve problems in the academic way, and do a good demo, if it has nothing original, nothing that makes you be out of the lot from a, “wow this is cool, a good idea there” I wouldn’t be as interested. In fact, I would go with a candidate that is more creative, but less good at writing a memory allocator, or forgot to clean up his memory leaks than a programmer that will show nice and clean code, but has just done something that I saw 100 times, just in a more clean way.

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By: kenny b/2011/02/15/on-demos-and-programming-tests-rant-from-a-q-games-test-reviewer/#comment-827 kenny b Wed, 16 Feb 2011 16:14:31 +0000 Yeah, what Rachel said! Dylan is fairly hardcore about trying to find "diamonds in the rough." We want not only people with lots of experience, but also people that we can nurture and mentor and turn into that next great industry veteran. You really have to have a good mix of both Yeah, what Rachel said!

Dylan is fairly hardcore about trying to find “diamonds in the rough.” We want not only people with lots of experience, but also people that we can nurture and mentor and turn into that next great industry veteran. You really have to have a good mix of both

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By: Jaymin Kessler/2011/02/15/on-demos-and-programming-tests-rant-from-a-q-games-test-reviewer/#comment-825 Jaymin Kessler Wed, 16 Feb 2011 14:22:34 +0000 @Fabrice The point of home projects is, they show you *care* about what you are doing. You want to learn, know more, get better. University projects, everybody has to do. (Well, provided they want a degree ;) Now, I'm sure somebody will read that as me expecting people to work day and night instead of having a life. That's NOT what I'm saying. What I'm saying is I want candidates who chose a profession that is part of their life, not "just a job". All top-level programmers I know are working on home projects. Not to look good at work, or get a better salary, or because it's expected of them, but because they want to learn more. (And for that matter, all great artists I know constantly hone their art. Designers are constantly taking game mechanics apart. Audio people do... whatever audio people do ;) I'd rather hire a candidate who wrote a great database or web related app at home that she was interested in, than somebody who wrote a couple of 3D projects for school but has no deeper interest in them. (Not saying that's the case for you - just that that is why school projects are often not valued as highly. They don't tell what you're interested in.) In general, if you get interviewed, use it as an opportunity to showcase what you're passionate about. Use it as an opportunity to learn. Keep in mind that your interviewer doesn't ask the question for the first time, in all likelihood. We dont' *really* want to know how a linked list works, again :) But if this leads to "so, there's this cool thing I learned about linked lists" or to "Well, here's this problem with the implementation, and here's what I think - what's YOUR thought", you've pulled the interviewer in. And if you care about the stuff you're talking about, you'll have an interesting discussion, and both of you will gain something from it. And believe me, your interviewer will very much appreciate being pulled in. And most importantly, you now have a shared "work" experience. It's not going to get you the job by itself - skills reign supreme - , but at the end of the day, when there are two candidates with equal skill level, who do you think is going to be picked? The one who just recited answers, or the one that the interviewers actually feel they already have a bit of a connection to? (Yes, I know. Icky touchy feely stuff. Sorry guys! ;) @Fabrice The point of home projects is, they show you *care* about what you are doing. You want to learn, know more, get better. University projects, everybody has to do. (Well, provided they want a degree ;)

Now, I’m sure somebody will read that as me expecting people to work day and night instead of having a life. That’s NOT what I’m saying. What I’m saying is I want candidates who chose a profession that is part of their life, not “just a job”. All top-level programmers I know are working on home projects. Not to look good at work, or get a better salary, or because it’s expected of them, but because they want to learn more. (And for that matter, all great artists I know constantly hone their art. Designers are constantly taking game mechanics apart. Audio people do… whatever audio people do ;)

I’d rather hire a candidate who wrote a great database or web related app at home that she was interested in, than somebody who wrote a couple of 3D projects for school but has no deeper interest in them. (Not saying that’s the case for you – just that that is why school projects are often not valued as highly. They don’t tell what you’re interested in.)

In general, if you get interviewed, use it as an opportunity to showcase what you’re passionate about. Use it as an opportunity to learn. Keep in mind that your interviewer doesn’t ask the question for the first time, in all likelihood. We dont’ *really* want to know how a linked list works, again :) But if this leads to “so, there’s this cool thing I learned about linked lists” or to “Well, here’s this problem with the implementation, and here’s what I think – what’s YOUR thought”, you’ve pulled the interviewer in. And if you care about the stuff you’re talking about, you’ll have an interesting discussion, and both of you will gain something from it. And believe me, your interviewer will very much appreciate being pulled in.

And most importantly, you now have a shared “work” experience. It’s not going to get you the job by itself – skills reign supreme – , but at the end of the day, when there are two candidates with equal skill level, who do you think is going to be picked? The one who just recited answers, or the one that the interviewers actually feel they already have a bit of a connection to?

(Yes, I know. Icky touchy feely stuff. Sorry guys! ;)

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By: mrfungfung/2011/02/15/on-demos-and-programming-tests-rant-from-a-q-games-test-reviewer/#comment-822 mrfungfung Wed, 16 Feb 2011 13:03:47 +0000 Totally agree with you here, Jaymin. I can't tell you how many times I've interviewed someone and had them kick back a rote answer (that is, when they can answer at all). It's disappointing; however, I will often follow up with questions that lead them to consider other factors. Hopefully, it turns a mediocre answer into an opportunity to learn more about how the candidate takes criticism, or how he responds to changing conditions, or how he works with others if we get a bit of back-and-forth going. There may be a gem under there just needing a little prodding to reveal itself... If they can't answer at all... well, I'll generally lead them through the problem, so as to salvage some of the interview, but at that point the interview is basically over for me. I'm not always interested in teaching. Totally agree with you here, Jaymin. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve interviewed someone and had them kick back a rote answer (that is, when they can answer at all). It’s disappointing; however, I will often follow up with questions that lead them to consider other factors. Hopefully, it turns a mediocre answer into an opportunity to learn more about how the candidate takes criticism, or how he responds to changing conditions, or how he works with others if we get a bit of back-and-forth going. There may be a gem under there just needing a little prodding to reveal itself…

If they can’t answer at all… well, I’ll generally lead them through the problem, so as to salvage some of the interview, but at that point the interview is basically over for me. I’m not always interested in teaching.

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By: Christian Abildsø/2011/02/15/on-demos-and-programming-tests-rant-from-a-q-games-test-reviewer/#comment-818 Christian Abildsø Wed, 16 Feb 2011 12:38:38 +0000 @Fabrice : I didn't mean to lower the importance of school projects or working in a team, but when you hire some one you are hiring that person and not hiring their entire class project team. Its really important to know what work was theirs, and thats hard to know if many people were involved. If they make claims like "I wrote the physics" or "I was the graphics programmer" then you can ask them in-depth questions about what they did, what decisions/tradeoffs they had to make, and why. However, having school projects isn't my main concern, but rather the lack of home projects. It _may_ be a bad sign that they have no desire to learn and experiment on their own at home @Jonathan Glad I can be of some use to someone for once :) @Fabrice : I didn’t mean to lower the importance of school projects or working in a team, but when you hire some one you are hiring that person and not hiring their entire class project team. Its really important to know what work was theirs, and thats hard to know if many people were involved. If they make claims like “I wrote the physics” or “I was the graphics programmer” then you can ask them in-depth questions about what they did, what decisions/tradeoffs they had to make, and why. However, having school projects isn’t my main concern, but rather the lack of home projects. It _may_ be a bad sign that they have no desire to learn and experiment on their own at home

@Jonathan Glad I can be of some use to someone for once :)

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By: Jonathan Adamczewski/2011/02/15/on-demos-and-programming-tests-rant-from-a-q-games-test-reviewer/#comment-809 Jonathan Adamczewski Wed, 16 Feb 2011 03:47:59 +0000 [...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Justin Mills, John Sietsma. John Sietsma said: For everyone trying to get a games job: Most people I have been working with had pet projects long before entering the industry, I completely agree with you on their importance, they not only showcase skill but also (and maybe most importantly) passion, involvement and perseverance. But I think you should have more consideration for school projects, first it is trivial (and kind of fun, in a sadistic way) to sort out people who actually worked on a group project from the ones who just "hitched a ride" with a few carefully chosen questions, but also some students have great latitude when it comes to pick up school projects. I fought hard but managed to do all my main university projects in the real time 3D field, when most of the other students were going for web and databases. Most people I have been working with had pet projects long before entering the industry, I completely agree with you on their importance, they not only showcase skill but also (and maybe most importantly) passion, involvement and perseverance.

But I think you should have more consideration for school projects, first it is trivial (and kind of fun, in a sadistic way) to sort out people who actually worked on a group project from the ones who just “hitched a ride” with a few carefully chosen questions, but also some students have great latitude when it comes to pick up school projects. I fought hard but managed to do all my main university projects in the real time 3D field, when most of the other students were going for web and databases.

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