Comments on: The Importance of Being: Discussion in the Industry Good luck, I'll watch your future success with interest. Good luck, I’ll watch your future success with interest.

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By: Nathan Runge/2011/05/20/the-importance-of-being-discussion-in-the-industry/#comment-4729 Nathan Runge Sun, 22 May 2011 12:16:45 +0000 Wouldn't you agree that the straw man of Krome you present cannot be argued WITHOUT discussion of internal details? So by making veiled accusations you force those that disagree with you into either silence or unprofessional discussions of studio internals. Small wonder when caught between letting your opinion stand unchallenged and breaching their professional obligations that some might resort to ad hominem attacks. In short, you espouse open and frank discussion, but perhaps there's a better way than your current methods of ruffling feathers for the sake of it. Wouldn’t you agree that the straw man of Krome you present cannot be argued WITHOUT discussion of internal details?

So by making veiled accusations you force those that disagree with you into either silence or unprofessional discussions of studio internals. Small wonder when caught between letting your opinion stand unchallenged and breaching their professional obligations that some might resort to ad hominem attacks.

In short, you espouse open and frank discussion, but perhaps there’s a better way than your current methods of ruffling feathers for the sake of it.

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By: Nathan Runge/2011/05/20/the-importance-of-being-discussion-in-the-industry/#comment-4720 Nathan Runge Sun, 22 May 2011 09:47:32 +0000 1) there’s a whole continuum of ways to give negative feedback, from “nicities” as you say through to scathing vitriol. My opinion on how to do that is best summed up by this little ditty: Yes and no, I know personally you'd have a hard time getting a job. I respect your decision to take the hard line approach, and you should have the ability to voice your opinion. This is something you weren't given on tsumea. It does have a consequence in this case (one which you've indicated your quite happy with) where some employers would have trouble to hire you. So if someone had a ambition of getting into the industry I think constructive criticism is important. Most employers will ask you to analyse a game etc when taking a job interview. Just it needs to be carefully balanced with the positives also. Anyway, I'm going to jump out of this discussion :) Yes and no,

I know personally you’d have a hard time getting a job. I respect your decision to take the hard line approach, and you should have the ability to voice your opinion. This is something you weren’t given on tsumea. It does have a consequence in this case (one which you’ve indicated your quite happy with) where some employers would have trouble to hire you.

So if someone had a ambition of getting into the industry I think constructive criticism is important. Most employers will ask you to analyse a game etc when taking a job interview. Just it needs to be carefully balanced with the positives also.

Anyway, I’m going to jump out of this discussion :)

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By: Nathan Runge/2011/05/20/the-importance-of-being-discussion-in-the-industry/#comment-4712 Nathan Runge Sun, 22 May 2011 03:54:37 +0000 Good day Derek, There is no 'official view' of the Australian games industry. Internet forums, especially those industry-oriented, ARE the game development community. Certainly we gather now and then, and groups of us drink together on a regular basis. In terms of productive discussion, this is the 'digital age' and online is where it happens. Certainly, one 'flame war' isn't a clear sign, but an ongoing pattern certainly is. Additionally, tertiary education institutions often bring in a range of 'industry experts', who actively encourage students to not express negative opinions as the industry is small and doesn't forget. Whether you choose to accept it or not, this is a legitimate problem that is causing great problems for the industry. Good day Derek,

There is no ‘official view’ of the Australian games industry. Internet forums, especially those industry-oriented, ARE the game development community. Certainly we gather now and then, and groups of us drink together on a regular basis. In terms of productive discussion, this is the ‘digital age’ and online is where it happens. Certainly, one ‘flame war’ isn’t a clear sign, but an ongoing pattern certainly is.

Additionally, tertiary education institutions often bring in a range of ‘industry experts’, who actively encourage students to not express negative opinions as the industry is small and doesn’t forget. Whether you choose to accept it or not, this is a legitimate problem that is causing great problems for the industry.

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By: Nathan Runge/2011/05/20/the-importance-of-being-discussion-in-the-industry/#comment-4710 Nathan Runge Sun, 22 May 2011 03:44:19 +0000 Flame wars by individuals on a community board should not be taken as the official views of the Australian games industry. Internet forums are full of trolls, pot stirrers and generally people with too much spare time. Get over it. Flame wars by individuals on a community board should not be taken as the official views of the Australian games industry. Internet forums are full of trolls, pot stirrers and generally people with too much spare time.

Get over it.

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By: Glenn Watson/2011/05/20/the-importance-of-being-discussion-in-the-industry/#comment-4706 Glenn Watson Sun, 22 May 2011 00:01:12 +0000 I have to add this conversation. The outcome of a product launch/publicity has the same result for a company or individual. To alienate your entire employer base has the same result as a footballer bagging out his fellow teams, no one will want that player on their team. i.e. A game developer who bags out all the local companies is not going to get hired easily. Same with a company, if a product is not of the quality expected or demanded, then the company is going to find it hard to find new publishers (the sponsor in the previous scenario). i.e. a sports team loosing repeated matches is going to loose faith from the sponsors. A games company making inferior products is going to find it hard to find new products. Sports are also another business, they are in it to make the money from the entertainment value, the same as games. I have to add this conversation.

The outcome of a product launch/publicity has the same result for a company or individual.

To alienate your entire employer base has the same result as a footballer bagging out his fellow teams, no one will want that player on their team. i.e. A game developer who bags out all the local companies is not going to get hired easily.

Same with a company, if a product is not of the quality expected or demanded, then the company is going to find it hard to find new publishers (the sponsor in the previous scenario). i.e. a sports team loosing repeated matches is going to loose faith from the sponsors. A games company making inferior products is going to find it hard to find new products.

Sports are also another business, they are in it to make the money from the entertainment value, the same as games.

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By: Nathan Runge/2011/05/20/the-importance-of-being-discussion-in-the-industry/#comment-4683 Nathan Runge Sat, 21 May 2011 12:44:08 +0000 If you want a professional discussion then it helps to start on those terms. As an example; you may hear "scathing" from the panelists on your favorite football code's show, but you'll (almost) never hear it from the players or coaches, at least not publicly. It just isn't professional to deride, blame or amtagonise your teammates, other teams or the fans. That's hardly "nepotism", or a "circle-jerk", just professionalism. So keep your opinions polite, informed and constructive and perhaps others will follow your lead. Or be scathing and dismissive and see how that pans out. If you want a professional discussion then it helps to start on those terms.

As an example; you may hear “scathing” from the panelists on your favorite football code’s show, but you’ll (almost) never hear it from the players or coaches, at least not publicly. It just isn’t professional to deride, blame or amtagonise your teammates, other teams or the fans.

That’s hardly “nepotism”, or a “circle-jerk”, just professionalism.

So keep your opinions polite, informed and constructive and perhaps others will follow your lead. Or be scathing and dismissive and see how that pans out.

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By: Nathan Runge/2011/05/20/the-importance-of-being-discussion-in-the-industry/#comment-4680 Nathan Runge Sat, 21 May 2011 11:11:16 +0000 I'm not sure I understand. You say the problem with the industry is that people won't discuss their opinions openly, and yet you don't want to discuss the examples you provide to illustrate your own opinion? I’m not sure I understand. You say the problem with the industry is that people won’t discuss their opinions openly, and yet you don’t want to discuss the examples you provide to illustrate your own opinion?

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By: Nathan Runge/2011/05/20/the-importance-of-being-discussion-in-the-industry/#comment-4674 Nathan Runge Sat, 21 May 2011 09:54:26 +0000 For context, the post from which Nathan's edited highlights are drawn can be found here: http://tsumea.com/australasia/australia/news/020311/halfbrick-studios-reveal-machinegun-jetpack-at-gdc Perhaps the problem here was that you saw comments such as "flogging this dead, one-trick pony" as "an inoffensive opinion", and the people who made the game may not have. However I don't see how they could have "made a case", there are no facts to dispute or conclusions to address, just an opinion. For context, the post from which Nathan’s edited highlights are drawn can be found here:

G'day Glenn, Regarding point two, I meant to acknowledge the source of those comments and forgot. You were right to call me on it. DISCLOSURE: As I've said, I've not made a lot of friends holding this position. A number of the comments above were regarding myself. There are some others, as the problem is widespread, but that particular 'debate' was a long example. The rest of your points sort of stand by themselves, and I can't add a lot. Nonetheless, thanks for the comment and for keeping me honest. Regarding blacklisting: I don't really agree with it myself, but I'm getting some really interesting feedback on that survey. There are responses from around the world. I look forward to discussing the data on the 8th. G’day Glenn,

Regarding point two, I meant to acknowledge the source of those comments and forgot. You were right to call me on it. DISCLOSURE: As I’ve said, I’ve not made a lot of friends holding this position. A number of the comments above were regarding myself. There are some others, as the problem is widespread, but that particular ‘debate’ was a long example.

The rest of your points sort of stand by themselves, and I can’t add a lot. Nonetheless, thanks for the comment and for keeping me honest.

Regarding blacklisting: I don’t really agree with it myself, but I’m getting some really interesting feedback on that survey. There are responses from around the world. I look forward to discussing the data on the 8th.

]]> By: Glenn Watson/2011/05/20/the-importance-of-being-discussion-in-the-industry/#comment-4664 Glenn Watson Fri, 20 May 2011 23:26:15 +0000 Couple comments, these should hopefully not get on your "blacklist" :) 1. Some companies in Australia have have I agreed had a opinion that they are the best and this has hurt the local industry. This theme in your article I nodded my head with a few times. 2. Those comments you need to get in context. i.e. they were directed against yourself and some of that more harshly then they should, but at the same time it's nice to know the context. I felt in some ways you adding these comments in was attempting to win a argument? 3. The games industry is delivering a product, as I've commented in previous posts when the developers realise they are in any other commercial business things tend to go a bit smoother. 4. I worked with Krome for many years, internally at the time I joined they had a HR department attempting to make the company professional (not always succeeding). During my time there, I did not work overtime, I was given many perks. i.e. They even flew the entire adelaide/melbourne studios to the gold coast, hired out a theme park etc. Great for moral. I guess the previous commenter is right, people tend to put things in the "right/wrong" category and in the post I felt like you were taking the extreme on certain points. Then at other times they were a lousy employer especially when the crunch came. Companies change and mold over time. 5. Most companies I have worked for have had "egos" which sometimes get in the way of making the product. My current company I can't say there are any egos. Anyway, good luck with your next post. Couple comments, these should hopefully not get on your “blacklist” :)

1. Some companies in Australia have have I agreed had a opinion that they are the best and this has hurt the local industry. This theme in your article I nodded my head with a few times.
2. Those comments you need to get in context. i.e. they were directed against yourself and some of that more harshly then they should, but at the same time it’s nice to know the context. I felt in some ways you adding these comments in was attempting to win a argument?
3. The games industry is delivering a product, as I’ve commented in previous posts when the developers realise they are in any other commercial business things tend to go a bit smoother.
4. I worked with Krome for many years, internally at the time I joined they had a HR department attempting to make the company professional (not always succeeding). During my time there, I did not work overtime, I was given many perks. i.e. They even flew the entire adelaide/melbourne studios to the gold coast, hired out a theme park etc. Great for moral. I guess the previous commenter is right, people tend to put things in the “right/wrong” category and in the post I felt like you were taking the extreme on certain points. Then at other times they were a lousy employer especially when the crunch came. Companies change and mold over time.
5. Most companies I have worked for have had “egos” which sometimes get in the way of making the product. My current company I can’t say there are any egos.

Anyway, good luck with your next post.

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By: Robert Farr/2011/05/20/the-importance-of-being-discussion-in-the-industry/#comment-4643 Robert Farr Fri, 20 May 2011 07:38:55 +0000