Comments on: The Difference Between a Degree and an Education David Roberts - If you tackle any significant problem, you will pretty much <em>have</em> to learn the things that you don't like. It is impossible to build a website that will scale out appropriately or a high-performance game engine / compiler / OS without a understanding of all the necessary fundamentals. One example: when I was first learning graphics programming, I (naively) thought I could come up with a better way to translate bump maps into object (tangent) space. I slogged away trying to come up with a solution, and eventually came up with one that involved linear interpolation. I then realized that my "solution" was in fact just a slightly rearranged matrix multiplication, which is the commonly used algorithm for this task. Instantly, I understood how matrix multiplication *really* worked, something I would not have understood if I just plugged in the standard solution. Schools are like this -- they teach you all of the "standard" solutions, but rarely let you derive them yourself, and I think a real understanding of process and necessity of algorithms is lost by doing this. But regardless of all of that, I (personally) still do not think it is worth it to pay +$80k to have someone twist your arm and make you do things you don't want to. Rather, I say learn things the hard way, learn from your inevitable failures, and learn to enjoy learning - even the things that you are scared to understand. There are two types of programmers in my book: the ones who learn things because they love to, and the ones who need to be forced to do things. If you are in the latter category, a degree is probably perfect for you (although you should evaluate if CS is really what makes you happy) - both the university and your future employers will be very good at forcing you to do things :) David Roberts -

If you tackle any significant problem, you will pretty much have to learn the things that you don’t like. It is impossible to build a website that will scale out appropriately or a high-performance game engine / compiler / OS without a understanding of all the necessary fundamentals. One example: when I was first learning graphics programming, I (naively) thought I could come up with a better way to translate bump maps into object (tangent) space. I slogged away trying to come up with a solution, and eventually came up with one that involved linear interpolation. I then realized that my “solution” was in fact just a slightly rearranged matrix multiplication, which is the commonly used algorithm for this task. Instantly, I understood how matrix multiplication *really* worked, something I would not have understood if I just plugged in the standard solution. Schools are like this — they teach you all of the “standard” solutions, but rarely let you derive them yourself, and I think a real understanding of process and necessity of algorithms is lost by doing this. But regardless of all of that, I (personally) still do not think it is worth it to pay +$80k to have someone twist your arm and make you do things you don’t want to. Rather, I say learn things the hard way, learn from your inevitable failures, and learn to enjoy learning – even the things that you are scared to understand.

There are two types of programmers in my book: the ones who learn things because they love to, and the ones who need to be forced to do things. If you are in the latter category, a degree is probably perfect for you (although you should evaluate if CS is really what makes you happy) – both the university and your future employers will be very good at forcing you to do things :)

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By: David Roberts/2011/04/14/the-difference-between-a-degree-and-an-education/#comment-4752 David Roberts Mon, 23 May 2011 11:18:13 +0000 [...] things for the love of it, I think you’re in the wrong career. Again another great read is The Difference Between a Degree and an Education by Gavan Woolery and yes, it’s another #altDevBlogaDay post. It’s just such a god damn [...] [...] things for the love of it, I think you’re in the wrong career. Again another great read is The Difference Between a Degree and an Education by Gavan Woolery and yes, it’s another #altDevBlogaDay post. It’s just such a god damn [...]

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By: FizzBuzz « Jamie's Blog/2011/04/14/the-difference-between-a-degree-and-an-education/#comment-2931 FizzBuzz « Jamie's Blog Mon, 18 Apr 2011 15:43:14 +0000 SomeGuy: Education begins with pre-school stuff/1st grade. If you compare it to building a house, this is the foundation. As the level of complexity in education is increased, the house gets bigger. So teaching 5th grade students can be compared to building the structure of the house while teaching college students is more like painting walls - what the professors/TAs do doesn't matter as much. That's why you're right, it's nothing like it. And that's why I said that you don't know as much about education as I do. There's also a thing you're forgetting - teachers are being taught to teach. At least in primary/secondary schools they are. And I know very well what they're taught. Thus I know very well how they go about putting that knowledge in practice. But how about you? SomeGuy:
Education begins with pre-school stuff/1st grade. If you compare it to building a house, this is the foundation. As the level of complexity in education is increased, the house gets bigger. So teaching 5th grade students can be compared to building the structure of the house while teaching college students is more like painting walls – what the professors/TAs do doesn’t matter as much.

That’s why you’re right, it’s nothing like it. And that’s why I said that you don’t know as much about education as I do.

There’s also a thing you’re forgetting – teachers are being taught to teach. At least in primary/secondary schools they are. And I know very well what they’re taught. Thus I know very well how they go about putting that knowledge in practice. But how about you?

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By: SomeGuy/2011/04/14/the-difference-between-a-degree-and-an-education/#comment-2812 SomeGuy Fri, 15 Apr 2011 14:25:48 +0000 I will agree with you mostly on the last paragraph. And yes Carmack's independent work is great. But my point was about larger theoretical work. I don't truly see how Catmull-Clark subdivision being invented at a company for example. Of course it would later famously be applied in Pixar's movies but a lot of theoretical framework is started at universities. (You have places like MS Research which has a lot of great people - but then those people got their start in academia ;) ) I will agree with you mostly on the last paragraph.

And yes Carmack’s independent work is great. But my point was about larger theoretical work. I don’t truly see how Catmull-Clark subdivision being invented at a company for example. Of course it would later famously be applied in Pixar’s movies but a lot of theoretical framework is started at universities. (You have places like MS Research which has a lot of great people – but then those people got their start in academia ;) )

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By: snake5/2011/04/14/the-difference-between-a-degree-and-an-education/#comment-2807 snake5 Fri, 15 Apr 2011 09:34:21 +0000 Engineering is supposed to be about practice, not inventions. And since students often fail hard at practice, I don’t see in which way it succeeds.

The real point is to make education simple for teachers. You know, when I had to be a teacher for a day in 5th grade, I learned that it’s much more simple to teach if one could follow a simple plan. I had no idea what it’s like and in that day I found out the most of it. They often don’t want/need to hear your answers, they don’t care much about the result, they care only about their plan. Of course, experienced teachers are better at improvising but it’s not rewarding to do more of that. They have to follow a plan that higher authorities have given to them.

The reason most companies require that is because they’re lazy and it sorts out wannabe programmers. Programmers with experience will have the confidence to ask for the job regardless of their education.

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By: Gavan Woolery/2011/04/14/the-difference-between-a-degree-and-an-education/#comment-2804 Gavan Woolery Fri, 15 Apr 2011 08:17:19 +0000 SomeGuy - "But without academia you would not have techniques such as texture mapping, z-buffering, anti-aliasing, phong shading, and countless others. Academia affords professors time to work on problems (not just in CS but across all fields) which very few in the industry can afford to." Just because these things were created in an academic environment does not mean they would not exist if academia did not exist. Everyone has free time, not just researchers, and some of the most brilliant things come from individuals outside of academia (look at Carmack's work, for example). Also, sometimes academia is an unnecessarily bureaucratic environment, and the vast majority of research papers "gather dust" because they have little real-world use or worse yet, are outright useless. But the bigger problem is that students are being ripped off. They are largely funding all of the research that occurs in universities with their tuitions, yet not reaping the real benefits or credit for it, and not getting the attention they deserve for the amount they are paying. Most schools are not too subtle in their policy of putting research above students. I think that research (as performed by the professors) should occur completely independent of student's tuition (i.e. from grants or contracts), and students should get what they are paying for - an education. SomeGuy –
“But without academia you would not have techniques such as texture mapping, z-buffering, anti-aliasing, phong shading, and countless others. Academia affords professors time to work on problems (not just in CS but across all fields) which very few in the industry can afford to.”

Just because these things were created in an academic environment does not mean they would not exist if academia did not exist. Everyone has free time, not just researchers, and some of the most brilliant things come from individuals outside of academia (look at Carmack’s work, for example). Also, sometimes academia is an unnecessarily bureaucratic environment, and the vast majority of research papers “gather dust” because they have little real-world use or worse yet, are outright useless.

But the bigger problem is that students are being ripped off. They are largely funding all of the research that occurs in universities with their tuitions, yet not reaping the real benefits or credit for it, and not getting the attention they deserve for the amount they are paying. Most schools are not too subtle in their policy of putting research above students. I think that research (as performed by the professors) should occur completely independent of student’s tuition (i.e. from grants or contracts), and students should get what they are paying for – an education.

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By: mousebird/2011/04/14/the-difference-between-a-degree-and-an-education/#comment-2790 mousebird Fri, 15 Apr 2011 05:13:20 +0000 This is a very good point. I think it's important to remember that Computer Science is often about problem solving and algorithms, not necessarily learning how to write code or to know many tools. The tools and code are just a means to an end. If you have ever given an interview at Amazon, Google, MS, ebay and others you would realize how important it is to be a great problem solver. Can you learn problem solving on your own? maybe. But you really have to know the ins-and-outs of algorithmic complexity, time complexity, space complexity and so forth. This is a very good point. I think it’s important to remember that Computer Science is often about problem solving and algorithms, not necessarily learning how to write code or to know many tools. The tools and code are just a means to an end.

If you have ever given an interview at Amazon, Google, MS, ebay and others you would realize how important it is to be a great problem solver. Can you learn problem solving on your own? maybe. But you really have to know the ins-and-outs of algorithmic complexity, time complexity, space complexity and so forth.

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By: SomeGuy/2011/04/14/the-difference-between-a-degree-and-an-education/#comment-2788 SomeGuy Fri, 15 Apr 2011 04:01:17 +0000 Maybe it's different in the US, but in the UK, undergraduate (or even Masters') schooling is something to be considered separately from postgraduate and research work. Yes, academia has made many contributions to Computer Science - but that has little impact on whether it's good for you to spend your time there as an undergraduate. Often, the best researchers are crap at teaching; or even, the university doesn't want them to teach, because the research is more valuable. "Creating well-educated, well-rounded citizens for the larger society" is all very well for the larger society but shits all over what the individual citizen may want. Maybe it’s different in the US, but in the UK, undergraduate (or even Masters’) schooling is something to be considered separately from postgraduate and research work. Yes, academia has made many contributions to Computer Science – but that has little impact on whether it’s good for you to spend your time there as an undergraduate. Often, the best researchers are crap at teaching; or even, the university doesn’t want them to teach, because the research is more valuable.

“Creating well-educated, well-rounded citizens for the larger society” is all very well for the larger society but shits all over what the individual citizen may want.

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By: Richard Fine/2011/04/14/the-difference-between-a-degree-and-an-education/#comment-2782 Richard Fine Fri, 15 Apr 2011 01:06:33 +0000 Pal-Kristian - I agree. Someone once broke it down like this: College students are (generally) better at the theory, self-taught students are (generally) better at the implementation. I think it all boils down to the candidate more than whether or not they have a degree - are they the type of person who is actually passionate about learning programming and the deeper theories, or are they the type of person who writes spaghetti code and just barely enough to get by? Even universities can produce the latter type of employee. I have been in a hiring position before, and I never once checked for a degree - I looked first at what they had worked on, and if that was promising, I asked to see a sample of their code. That usually told me enough about the person to get an idea of how grounded they were. On the other hand, a degree is a very vague certification - you can get one without writing a compiler or OS (I did) - I think both of those activities are essential for a real CS student. (I later wrote a compiler and VM on my own time though). Pal-Kristian – I agree. Someone once broke it down like this:

College students are (generally) better at the theory, self-taught students are (generally) better at the implementation.

I think it all boils down to the candidate more than whether or not they have a degree – are they the type of person who is actually passionate about learning programming and the deeper theories, or are they the type of person who writes spaghetti code and just barely enough to get by? Even universities can produce the latter type of employee.

I have been in a hiring position before, and I never once checked for a degree – I looked first at what they had worked on, and if that was promising, I asked to see a sample of their code. That usually told me enough about the person to get an idea of how grounded they were. On the other hand, a degree is a very vague certification – you can get one without writing a compiler or OS (I did) – I think both of those activities are essential for a real CS student. (I later wrote a compiler and VM on my own time though).

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By: Gavan Woolery/2011/04/14/the-difference-between-a-degree-and-an-education/#comment-2775 Gavan Woolery Thu, 14 Apr 2011 23:52:17 +0000 <blockquote>People like you always like to bring up the exceptions rather than the rule.</blockquote> The rule is that the system of education is corrupted in its root. People are taught out of their own interests, into tiny boxes, according to some standards that were made up by exceptional people who seem to have no idea of what's practical in the world. Those successful people are exceptions just because the rule implies teaching people to be work monkeys instead of intelligent, thinking, creative people. I don't believe in handing over my odds of getting knowledge to others. At least while the others clearly have no clue (which is the norm, not the exception) what I need and/or how to give it to me. <blockquote>It’s about creating well-educated, well-rounded citizens for the overall larger society.</blockquote> I can't agree with you here. If it were, how come most people work only in jobs of one kind in their lifetime? If it were, how come most people don't know anything about good movies? If it were, why are marketing specialists still in their jobs? Why are accidents happening? Why is there unemployment? Or perhaps is "well-rounded" more like "well-stuffed-in-a-tiny-box"? <blockquote>Though I am a CS student</blockquote> I hope you're not <a href="http://youarenotsosmart.com/2010/05/19/fanboyism-and-brand-loyalty/" rel="nofollow">doing this right now</a> then... <blockquote>Also it seems like you are not aware of how much academia has contributed to the vast field of Computer Science, especially in terms of computer graphics which game developers are aware of.</blockquote> But maybe you're not aware of how the people who understand the practical value of things have turned the knowledge into a much more developer-friendly form than academia ever possibly could? I don't know if you've had some insight into the level teachers are at and how they get there, but I have. And I can tell you for sure that they're still far away from getting the most out of today's opportunities and knowledge. And as a game designer, I can tell you that they're far from using our methods for teaching. Which is what makes them quite worthless in my eyes.

People like you always like to bring up the exceptions rather than the rule.

The rule is that the system of education is corrupted in its root.
People are taught out of their own interests, into tiny boxes, according to some standards that were made up by exceptional people who seem to have no idea of what’s practical in the world.
Those successful people are exceptions just because the rule implies teaching people to be work monkeys instead of intelligent, thinking, creative people.

I don’t believe in handing over my odds of getting knowledge to others. At least while the others clearly have no clue (which is the norm, not the exception) what I need and/or how to give it to me.

It’s about creating well-educated, well-rounded citizens for the overall larger society.

I can’t agree with you here. If it were, how come most people work only in jobs of one kind in their lifetime? If it were, how come most people don’t know anything about good movies? If it were, why are marketing specialists still in their jobs? Why are accidents happening? Why is there unemployment? Or perhaps is “well-rounded” more like “well-stuffed-in-a-tiny-box”?

Though I am a CS student

I hope you’re not doing this right now then…

Also it seems like you are not aware of how much academia has contributed to the vast field of Computer Science, especially in terms of computer graphics which game developers are aware of.

But maybe you’re not aware of how the people who understand the practical value of things have turned the knowledge into a much more developer-friendly form than academia ever possibly could?

I don’t know if you’ve had some insight into the level teachers are at and how they get there, but I have. And I can tell you for sure that they’re still far away from getting the most out of today’s opportunities and knowledge. And as a game designer, I can tell you that they’re far from using our methods for teaching. Which is what makes them quite worthless in my eyes.

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By: Gavan Woolery/2011/04/14/the-difference-between-a-degree-and-an-education/#comment-2773 Gavan Woolery Thu, 14 Apr 2011 23:47:37 +0000 Matt, yes as I pointed out, "hands-on" and "special certification" degrees that utilize expensive equipment and/or dangerous resources are best left to the universities for now. Matt, yes as I pointed out, “hands-on” and “special certification” degrees that utilize expensive equipment and/or dangerous resources are best left to the universities for now.

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By: Gavan Woolery/2011/04/14/the-difference-between-a-degree-and-an-education/#comment-2771 Gavan Woolery Thu, 14 Apr 2011 23:21:54 +0000 As someone who assesses candidates for our game studio, I can tell you that having a degree makes a huge difference. While self-taught programmers can be very good, in *general* they seem to have more holes in their knowledge-base than their college-educated peers. This is not necessarily a show-stopper, but it is a factor. In other words, the fact that you have had to learn subjects that you don't find particularly interesting is in-of-itself a very valuable aspect of college education. However, what usually sets college-educated programmers apart from self-taught ones is that they usually are better problem-solvers. Not because they are smarter, but because they have a larger tool-set. They can take a problem and recast it in a different setting, thereby creating unique solution to particular problems. Finally, I would like to point out that self-taught programmers often lack the necessary social skills that are required for efficient team-work. I am obviously over-generalizing here, but whenever we interview a self-taught programmer - these are the danger-signs that we are looking for. In short, college education probably gave you a little bit more than what you are giving it credit for. PKE As someone who assesses candidates for our game studio, I can tell you that having a degree makes a huge difference. While self-taught programmers can be very good, in *general* they seem to have more holes in their knowledge-base than their college-educated peers. This is not necessarily a show-stopper, but it is a factor. In other words, the fact that you have had to learn subjects that you don’t find particularly interesting is in-of-itself a very valuable aspect of college education. However, what usually sets college-educated programmers apart from self-taught ones is that they usually are better problem-solvers. Not because they are smarter, but because they have a larger tool-set. They can take a problem and recast it in a different setting, thereby creating unique solution to particular problems. Finally, I would like to point out that self-taught programmers often lack the necessary social skills that are required for efficient team-work.

I am obviously over-generalizing here, but whenever we interview a self-taught programmer – these are the danger-signs that we are looking for. In short, college education probably gave you a little bit more than what you are giving it credit for.

PKE

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By: MarcT/2011/04/14/the-difference-between-a-degree-and-an-education/#comment-2769 MarcT Thu, 14 Apr 2011 21:45:48 +0000 Excellent comment. "A debate among the privileged" - how apt. Excellent comment. “A debate among the privileged” – how apt.

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By: SomeGuy/2011/04/14/the-difference-between-a-degree-and-an-education/#comment-2763 SomeGuy Thu, 14 Apr 2011 19:11:16 +0000 Now I realize that this discussion has been heavily focused on CS and tech, where you can take on personal projects much more easily. I have a B.S. in Chemistry, a major that doesn't have the same advantages. While many of the issues raised in the article have parallels in my field, there isn't really a suitable substitute for people that do not wish to pursue a degree in Chemistry but still wish to work in chemical research. Limited access to chemicals and journals will keep you from performing on the level of your degreed peers, and the lack of any degree (much less a PhD) will keep virtually all doors closed to you. It might be a broken system, but it's one that employers (in research, anyway) have adapted to and won't consider any candidate that doesn't fit into their pigeonholes. Now I realize that this discussion has been heavily focused on CS and tech, where you can take on personal projects much more easily. I have a B.S. in Chemistry, a major that doesn’t have the same advantages. While many of the issues raised in the article have parallels in my field, there isn’t really a suitable substitute for people that do not wish to pursue a degree in Chemistry but still wish to work in chemical research. Limited access to chemicals and journals will keep you from performing on the level of your degreed peers, and the lack of any degree (much less a PhD) will keep virtually all doors closed to you. It might be a broken system, but it’s one that employers (in research, anyway) have adapted to and won’t consider any candidate that doesn’t fit into their pigeonholes.

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By: Christopher Waite/2011/04/14/the-difference-between-a-degree-and-an-education/#comment-2754 Christopher Waite Thu, 14 Apr 2011 16:43:36 +0000 Yep, it never hurts to have an open mind ;) Yep, it never hurts to have an open mind ;)

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By: Gavan Woolery/2011/04/14/the-difference-between-a-degree-and-an-education/#comment-2752 Gavan Woolery Thu, 14 Apr 2011 16:33:05 +0000 JT - I am glad you found benefits from your college experience - if it was worth it for you, (I hate to keep using the phrase, but...) more power to you. JT – I am glad you found benefits from your college experience – if it was worth it for you, (I hate to keep using the phrase, but…) more power to you.

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By: Gavan Woolery/2011/04/14/the-difference-between-a-degree-and-an-education/#comment-2750 Gavan Woolery Thu, 14 Apr 2011 15:17:10 +0000

Furthermore (from Wikipedia):
“Socialism is an economic and political theory advocating public or common ownership and cooperative management of the means of production and allocation of resources.”

Much of Europe has socialized healthcare and education. Do you wish to debate with me on this, or do you just want to continue claiming that I do not know what I am talking about without evidence to back up your accusations?

As for the first point, it is denoted as an opinion (“in my book”), but feel free to argue with it nonetheless, provided you have more than vacuous insults as arguments.

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By: JT Mengel/2011/04/14/the-difference-between-a-degree-and-an-education/#comment-2749 JT Mengel Thu, 14 Apr 2011 15:06:30 +0000 hackerspace with a group of motivated people? Absolutely; but what my ‘higher education’ did for me was act as a low-barrier spring-board. Perhaps the time spent in universities could be shortened to lower end costs on students now that there is more access to learning tools outside of school, but for me it is, alas, too late [smile].

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By: Raul Aliaga Diaz/2011/04/14/the-difference-between-a-degree-and-an-education/#comment-2747 Raul Aliaga Diaz Thu, 14 Apr 2011 15:02:58 +0000 Selection Bias should think twice to skip school or drop out, because for every single successful dropout there are many struggling to get their years back for trying foolishly to follow the path of some lucky guys. But we don’t see those on the news and tech blogs, isn’t it? Because, who’d like to show off that they lost the game of entrepreneurship?

As someone said on twitter, this is a debate for the privileged ones, those who can perform good enough in their ventures despite of being clueless and dropping out, because they, their parents or some particular circumstances can afford them to lose.

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By: Kristine/2011/04/14/the-difference-between-a-degree-and-an-education/#comment-2746 Kristine Thu, 14 Apr 2011 14:59:36 +0000 Great - I think we are in agreement! Great – I think we are in agreement!

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By: Gavan Woolery/2011/04/14/the-difference-between-a-degree-and-an-education/#comment-2744 Gavan Woolery Thu, 14 Apr 2011 14:41:54 +0000 JohnS - It is an American attitude, I am afraid to say it :) Europe tends more towards socialism, America more towards capitalism. Which one is better is a huge debate that probably cannot be settled here, but regardless, whether in a socialist or capitalist society, you pay for education - either directly, or indirectly (via taxes). It is hard to place value on many of the intangible benefits you describe, so lets look at the one tangible benefit of a degree, the reason most people (at least in America) get degrees: so that they can land a job. My argument is that a degree does not help you land a job, at least not nearly as much as relevant work/hobby experience does. Also, its not like I skipped every single class, there were many I had to attend and many that I attended just because I was curious. I think I got a fair amount of the "college experience" - at least enough to cast a judgment :) JohnS -
It is an American attitude, I am afraid to say it :)
Europe tends more towards socialism, America more towards capitalism. Which one is better is a huge debate that probably cannot be settled here, but regardless, whether in a socialist or capitalist society, you pay for education – either directly, or indirectly (via taxes).

It is hard to place value on many of the intangible benefits you describe, so lets look at the one tangible benefit of a degree, the reason most people (at least in America) get degrees: so that they can land a job. My argument is that a degree does not help you land a job, at least not nearly as much as relevant work/hobby experience does.

Also, its not like I skipped every single class, there were many I had to attend and many that I attended just because I was curious. I think I got a fair amount of the “college experience” – at least enough to cast a judgment :)

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By: vince/2011/04/14/the-difference-between-a-degree-and-an-education/#comment-2742 vince Thu, 14 Apr 2011 14:31:51 +0000 Gavan, I read this after I replied to you above. And I could not agree with you more. Many modern universities HAVE turned into "money mills", absolutely! And I'm sorry that your experience was of a university like this. It is up to those in the universities (myself included; in full disclosure, I teach Computer Science) to engage with students, and excite them, and drive them with passion to a subject that they will fall in love with. The day that the institution I'm at values money above learning, I will leave. Now that I understand where you are coming from, and the experiences that you had, I appreciate your perspective. Gavan, I read this after I replied to you above. And I could not agree with you more. Many modern universities HAVE turned into “money mills”, absolutely! And I’m sorry that your experience was of a university like this. It is up to those in the universities (myself included; in full disclosure, I teach Computer Science) to engage with students, and excite them, and drive them with passion to a subject that they will fall in love with. The day that the institution I’m at values money above learning, I will leave.

Now that I understand where you are coming from, and the experiences that you had, I appreciate your perspective.

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By: Richard Fine/2011/04/14/the-difference-between-a-degree-and-an-education/#comment-2739 Richard Fine Thu, 14 Apr 2011 14:19:06 +0000 Gavan, you make it sound like a bad thing! "The government is taking our tax dollars and using it for lazy welfare bums" is a very American perspective that is not shared by most of the world (including where I live -- we feel are privileged to help each other here, it is not a burden). I point this out so that I can say this: You CAN learn anything you want to on your own, sure. But university exposes you to these things, and forces you to go deeply into them and engage with the subject matter at a level that you might not have engaged with it had you only your own drive to power you. Look up the "Zone of Proximal Development" for a great number of discussions, case studies, etc on this. When you look at it this way, you see that "tax dollars" are a very poor way to represent the actual benefit of tertiary education. How much is a more fulfilling life worth, in terms of dollars? Or a change in mindset that lets you solve problems more efficiently or creatively? You cannot put a value on them (...though, admittedly, this hasn't stopped many Americans from trying ;)). In the best case, a university education changes the way that you think, so that you have many different ways to think about a problem. From what you say about your university education, you didn't pay much attention and you did fine -- and yes, you can do that. Undergraduate courses are deliberately structured to allow people who take a "surface approach" to pass. I would, however, say that you probably cheated yourself out of what it could have been, and you can very likely name people from your own class who say that a particular lecturer or discipline changed how they viewed the world. What you did was like going to China, and then staying in a hotel room reading a book about China; and now, you return to your homeland, and tell people that the trip was not worth what you paid! Gavan, you make it sound like a bad thing! “The government is taking our tax dollars and using it for lazy welfare bums” is a very American perspective that is not shared by most of the world (including where I live — we feel are privileged to help each other here, it is not a burden). I point this out so that I can say this:

You CAN learn anything you want to on your own, sure. But university exposes you to these things, and forces you to go deeply into them and engage with the subject matter at a level that you might not have engaged with it had you only your own drive to power you. Look up the “Zone of Proximal Development” for a great number of discussions, case studies, etc on this. When you look at it this way, you see that “tax dollars” are a very poor way to represent the actual benefit of tertiary education. How much is a more fulfilling life worth, in terms of dollars? Or a change in mindset that lets you solve problems more efficiently or creatively? You cannot put a value on them (…though, admittedly, this hasn’t stopped many Americans from trying ;)).

In the best case, a university education changes the way that you think, so that you have many different ways to think about a problem. From what you say about your university education, you didn’t pay much attention and you did fine — and yes, you can do that. Undergraduate courses are deliberately structured to allow people who take a “surface approach” to pass. I would, however, say that you probably cheated yourself out of what it could have been, and you can very likely name people from your own class who say that a particular lecturer or discipline changed how they viewed the world. What you did was like going to China, and then staying in a hotel room reading a book about China; and now, you return to your homeland, and tell people that the trip was not worth what you paid!

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By: Gavan Woolery/2011/04/14/the-difference-between-a-degree-and-an-education/#comment-2737 Gavan Woolery Thu, 14 Apr 2011 14:17:26 +0000 If all you are going to do is skip lectures and read books, then yeah, college is a waste of money. My experience was different. All of my CS professors were very good - both at research and teaching (which is rare). The lectures were generally engaging, and often on topics that would be hard to find on my own. We were exposed to a wide variety of languages and programming paradigms. Independent study was encouraged and well supported. I had internship opportunities that would be more difficult for someone outside of the CS program -- I spent two summers at Microsoft and one at Trilogy. I was challenged. More than anything the CS program I attended taught fundamentals - not in some ivory tower theory-only sense (but there was plenty of theory, too), but focusing on understanding how things work at a fundamental level and not just the surface level, and more importantly, we had to implement them. Nothing teaches you about how operating systems work better than writing a kernel. Now, you're right, if you are an exceptional person you can get a lot of this on your own. But it's often hard to know what you don't know for a lot of people. My advice to folks is before shelling out a huge amount of money for college, make sure you are picking a good one. Talk to alumni. They'll let you know pretty quick whether they thought their experience was worthwhile. You also need to know yourself - are you likely to make the most of the opportunity? Or are you better off exploring things on your own? I think this is a personal decision, and there is no one size fits all answer. If all you are going to do is skip lectures and read books, then yeah, college is a waste of money.

My experience was different. All of my CS professors were very good – both at research and teaching (which is rare). The lectures were generally engaging, and often on topics that would be hard to find on my own. We were exposed to a wide variety of languages and programming paradigms. Independent study was encouraged and well supported. I had internship opportunities that would be more difficult for someone outside of the CS program — I spent two summers at Microsoft and one at Trilogy. I was challenged.

More than anything the CS program I attended taught fundamentals – not in some ivory tower theory-only sense (but there was plenty of theory, too), but focusing on understanding how things work at a fundamental level and not just the surface level, and more importantly, we had to implement them. Nothing teaches you about how operating systems work better than writing a kernel.

Now, you’re right, if you are an exceptional person you can get a lot of this on your own. But it’s often hard to know what you don’t know for a lot of people.

My advice to folks is before shelling out a huge amount of money for college, make sure you are picking a good one. Talk to alumni. They’ll let you know pretty quick whether they thought their experience was worthwhile. You also need to know yourself – are you likely to make the most of the opportunity? Or are you better off exploring things on your own? I think this is a personal decision, and there is no one size fits all answer.

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By: snake5/2011/04/14/the-difference-between-a-degree-and-an-education/#comment-2735 snake5 Thu, 14 Apr 2011 13:34:57 +0000 Thanks Ciarán - best of luck in your studies and work! Thanks Ciarán – best of luck in your studies and work!

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By: Ciarán McCann/2011/04/14/the-difference-between-a-degree-and-an-education/#comment-2732 Ciarán McCann Thu, 14 Apr 2011 12:49:03 +0000 JohnS - you are also right - if an education is "free" you should absolutely get it. But the problem is that the education you point to is not really "free" - it is payed for with tax dollars. Which means that if you work, you are not only paying for the education of your offspring (if you even have any), but you are also shouldering the same cost for the offspring of the people who DO NOT work (that is, you are basically taking a larger chunk of your paycheck out for taxes that pay for that "free" education). If a person lacks drive and gets bored easily, then they will not be good autodidacts or a university students, so I have no arguments there... I also agree with many of the benefits you mention, but I think you also miss my argument: sure a university can provide all of those things, but you can also get them for free - free as in not paying tuition and not relying on other people's tax dollars. You can learn philosophy and logic on your own, if you are interested in them. If you want to be a "well-rounded" person, you can learn whatever you like. But being "well-rounded" is not as valuable as we tend to think - most of the information I learned in Black Studies, Art History, etc. - I never use. My main question still holds: what does a university provide that is worth $80-$300k of tuition or tax-payer money? JohnS – you are also right – if an education is “free” you should absolutely get it. But the problem is that the education you point to is not really “free” – it is payed for with tax dollars. Which means that if you work, you are not only paying for the education of your offspring (if you even have any), but you are also shouldering the same cost for the offspring of the people who DO NOT work (that is, you are basically taking a larger chunk of your paycheck out for taxes that pay for that “free” education).

If a person lacks drive and gets bored easily, then they will not be good autodidacts or a university students, so I have no arguments there…

I also agree with many of the benefits you mention, but I think you also miss my argument: sure a university can provide all of those things, but you can also get them for free – free as in not paying tuition and not relying on other people’s tax dollars. You can learn philosophy and logic on your own, if you are interested in them. If you want to be a “well-rounded” person, you can learn whatever you like. But being “well-rounded” is not as valuable as we tend to think – most of the information I learned in Black Studies, Art History, etc. – I never use. My main question still holds: what does a university provide that is worth $80-$300k of tuition or tax-payer money?

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By: JohnS/2011/04/14/the-difference-between-a-degree-and-an-education/#comment-2730 JohnS Thu, 14 Apr 2011 12:21:30 +0000 You are right Larry, college will not imbue knowledge in you, it takes effort to learn, but I never argued against that. My question is what does the college provide (in particular, for software engineers) that is worth $80-300k? You are right Larry, college will not imbue knowledge in you, it takes effort to learn, but I never argued against that. My question is what does the college provide (in particular, for software engineers) that is worth $80-300k?

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By: LarryD/2011/04/14/the-difference-between-a-degree-and-an-education/#comment-2728 LarryD Thu, 14 Apr 2011 11:56:51 +0000