Comments on: A Difficult Subject True that. It is actually a cool component of the coop play dynamic. I remember spending dozen of hours on some warcraft 3 coop mode where we used to sabotage each other, attracting aggro on someone in particular etc... etc... I actually wonder if, in general, some designers have been working on coop mode thinking about this emergent form of play. I also believe that most of the time it can only be really fun with people you are used to play with (online/irl friends). Spending hours with random people in coop mode that just care about irritating people can be a big turn off. True that. It is actually a cool component of the coop play dynamic. I remember spending dozen of hours on some warcraft 3 coop mode where we used to sabotage each other, attracting aggro on someone in particular etc… etc…

I actually wonder if, in general, some designers have been working on coop mode thinking about this emergent form of play.

I also believe that most of the time it can only be really fun with people you are used to play with (online/irl friends). Spending hours with random people in coop mode that just care about irritating people can be a big turn off.

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By: snake5/2011/05/12/a-difficult-subject/#comment-3955 snake5 Thu, 12 May 2011 20:56:16 +0000 A good example of making failing fun is also in Portal 2 I think. I played through some of the dev commentary sections and one of the key things that they wanted was to make player death fun in coop. It alleviates frustration and makes sabotaging someone for a laugh a good option. I think a big portion of that comes from it being a shared experience mind you, but I know that they worked on hard to balance frustration of failing and the fun of it happening. Not that I'm some rampant Portal 2 fanboy always using it for my worked examples or anything... A good example of making failing fun is also in Portal 2 I think. I played through some of the dev commentary sections and one of the key things that they wanted was to make player death fun in coop. It alleviates frustration and makes sabotaging someone for a laugh a good option. I think a big portion of that comes from it being a shared experience mind you, but I know that they worked on hard to balance frustration of failing and the fun of it happening.

Not that I’m some rampant Portal 2 fanboy always using it for my worked examples or anything…

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By: Bjoern Knafla/2011/05/12/a-difficult-subject/#comment-3946 Bjoern Knafla Thu, 12 May 2011 19:07:00 +0000 Can you give a good example of when failing could be fun? Every example that I can remember at the moment either makes the failing fun decrease (often to the point of being extremely annoying) with each failure or is fun only if anything in the world is perceived to be fun (or if anything seems so hopeless that the player doesn't care what he's laughing about anymore). Or if the failure can easily turn out not to be a failure (Hitman: Blood Money). Can you give a good example of when failing could be fun? Every example that I can remember at the moment either makes the failing fun decrease (often to the point of being extremely annoying) with each failure or is fun only if anything in the world is perceived to be fun (or if anything seems so hopeless that the player doesn’t care what he’s laughing about anymore). Or if the failure can easily turn out not to be a failure (Hitman: Blood Money).

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By: Samuel Languy/2011/05/12/a-difficult-subject/#comment-3943 Samuel Languy Thu, 12 May 2011 17:00:11 +0000 Another thought (based on my multiplayer ramblings): if I am free to choose how much I learn and how difficult a game should be - is that what defines "play"? Not competing or trying to fulfill external measurements but to go as far as I want and as far as I enjoy what I'm doing? What about games that make failing fun - where I keep playing even when I need lots of tries to solve a puzzle or reach the end of a level because even when not succeeding I enjoy playing so much? What does "difficulty" become in such a scenario? Another thought (based on my multiplayer ramblings): if I am free to choose how much I learn and how difficult a game should be – is that what defines “play”? Not competing or trying to fulfill external measurements but to go as far as I want and as far as I enjoy what I’m doing?

What about games that make failing fun – where I keep playing even when I need lots of tries to solve a puzzle or reach the end of a level because even when not succeeding I enjoy playing so much? What does “difficulty” become in such a scenario?

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By: Bjoern Knafla/2011/05/12/a-difficult-subject/#comment-3933 Bjoern Knafla Thu, 12 May 2011 13:21:19 +0000 Thank you for your post! I really liked it! I have never thought that the difficulty setting could be seen as a measure for ' how am I prepared to feel frustration". That's really looking at the other side of the coin! That makes me think... how could this be applied to games like, say, Super Meat Boy? The normal levels get insanely hard, and frustrating, really fast. Not to mention when you get to the Dark World, which are far more frustrating. Maybe we could divide games into two categories: the ones that can have adaptative/dynamic difficulty, and the ones that make you spew out your lungs in frustration and anger. Thank you for your post! I really liked it!
I have never thought that the difficulty setting could be seen as a measure for ‘ how am I prepared to feel frustration”.

That’s really looking at the other side of the coin!

That makes me think… how could this be applied to games like, say, Super Meat Boy?
The normal levels get insanely hard, and frustrating, really fast. Not to mention when you get to the Dark World, which are far more frustrating.

Maybe we could divide games into two categories: the ones that can have adaptative/dynamic difficulty, and the ones that make you spew out your lungs in frustration and anger.

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By: Luke Dicken/2011/05/12/a-difficult-subject/#comment-3928 Luke Dicken Thu, 12 May 2011 11:38:27 +0000 Nice post, good look with the everyday thing! I hope you've got plenty of posts pre-drafted :-D Don't forget the critical relationship between bacon, science and player skill ! Nice post, good look with the everyday thing! I hope you’ve got plenty of posts pre-drafted :-D
Don’t forget the critical relationship between bacon, science and player skill !

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By: Alex Crouzen/2011/05/12/a-difficult-subject/#comment-3924 Alex Crouzen Thu, 12 May 2011 11:12:24 +0000